EP. 664

07/09/18

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

Even a bad map is better than no map at all.

Responsibility and Meaning

Have you asked yourself lately why you are here? I mean, what is your purpose? That may be an easy question for me to ask, but a challenging one for you to answer.  

During these times of questioning your purpose, itโ€™s common to replay events in your life where you felt out of control or like everything was going wrong. That reaction comes from a lack of responsibility for yourself. Youโ€™re lacking the goals you need to feel complete. 

Instead, start making a road map for your life: the things you want to achieve, the family you want to have, and how you want to feel every day. It doesnโ€™t have to be a perfect map โ€” no one has that โ€” but some direction is better than no direction. Without a start and an aim, you are going to stand there watching the world pass you by. 

In this episode, I sat down with clinical psychologist Dr. Jordan Peterson. We discuss the relationship between meaning and responsibility, the significance of spontaneous admiration, and how any aim (even a bad one) is crucial for you to feel fulfilled. Letโ€™s get started!

Who Is Dr. Jordan Peterson? 

Dr. Jordan Peterson is a Canadian professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, and the author of the million-plus selling, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos which has been a number one bestseller across the world and is translated into 40 languages.

This year, Dr. Peterson published his third book, Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life. The lectures and debates he shares on YouTube have also become popular, garnering millions of views. His popularity began to really take off in the late 2010s for his view on cultural and political issues.

Finding True Meaning in Life

One of the things Dr. Peterson often talks to his audience about is the relationship between responsibility and meaning. He also tries to make theoretical and abstract constructs more concrete so that they are implementable for those in his audience. He believes these philosophical frameworks can actually help structure your aim in life. And โ€œaimโ€ is a big theme we discuss in this episode.

โ€œIf you start with the presumption that there’s a baseline of suffering in life and that can be exaggerated by as a consequence of human failure as a consequence of malevolence and betrayal and self-betrayal and deceit and all those things that we do to each other and ourselves that we know that aren’t good, that amplifies the suffering. That’s sort of the baseline against which you have to work. And its contemplation of that is often what makes people hopeless and depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, and all of that.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

I like what Dr. Peterson has to say because of his message of hope. The hope we have in all our suffering is that we can be stronger than we think we are, and that our meaning is linked to the overcoming of that suffering. Itโ€™s really very encouraging to think of it that way. Itโ€™s why I do this show โ€” to help people find greatness in their purpose. 

โ€œAnd what you put up against that [suffering] is meaning. Meaning is actually the instinct that helps you guide yourself through that catastrophe. And most of that meaning is to be found in the adoption of responsibility.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

Dr. Peterson goes on to say that if we take personal responsibility for ourselves โ€” the way we would think of taking care of a loved one โ€” that we will find a key to happiness and meaning. How ironic that we often care for others more than we really care for ourselves. 

Spontaneous Admiration

He also mentions that if you look at the people that you spontaneously admire, the act of admiring someone is the manifestation of the instinct for meaning. This is partly why people are so enamored with sports figures because the sports figures are playing out the drama of attaining psychological and physical perfection in pursuit of the goal. We use these figures as models, and then their process of overcoming hardships can be transcribed into something applicable in life. 

โ€œIn an athletic performance, you really like to see someone whoโ€™s extremely disciplined and in shape do something physically remarkable and to stretch themselves even beyond their previous exploits because you really like to see a brilliant move in an athletic match.โ€ – Dr. Jordan Peterson 

I definitely can relate to this. As a former professional football player, I was constantly pushing my body beyond the limits of what I thought it could do because I was inspired by the legends I admired. I had a picture in my mind of doing the things they were able to do. 

โ€œYou also like to see that person [whom you admire] ensconced in a broader moral framework so that not only are they trying to win and disciplining themselves in pursuit of that victory, but they are also stretching themselves. So they’re continually getting better, but they’re doing it in a way that helps develop their whole team and that’s good for the sport in general. And that reflects well on the broader culture.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

Dr. Peterson says that sports are a great analogy for life because life is like a game. Similar to sports, you are setting forth an aim and then arranging your perceptions and actions in pursuit of that. 

In life, Dr. Peterson says itโ€™s more beneficial to have an aim than to not have any aim, even if that aim is wrong or you fail. Itโ€™s better to fail than to not try at all. 

โ€œ… you can’t suffer pointlessly without becoming bitter, and you can’t become bitter without becoming cruel. So you need an aim. The question then is, what should your aim be?โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson 

Before we know where we are going, we need to understand where we have been. Thatโ€™s where our story comes into play.

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Self Authoring Your Story

One of the tools that Dr. Peterson has in his toolbox is a program called Self Authoring. Itโ€™s an online storytelling platform that helps people tell their stories in six epochs. 

The program also helps people analyze their virtues and their faults. You can answer questions about how to capitalize on your strengths, fix your weaknesses and establish aims, which is where you can derive your meaning. 

โ€œItโ€™s not easy to ask people to say, โ€˜What do you want in your life?โ€™ It’s a very hard question to answer because it’s too vague and grandiose. So we help people break that down.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

Part of the program includes mapping out your future in stages and visualizing what you want your life to be like. Not only are there steps to get there, but also considerations on how you are going to take care of yourself while youโ€™re getting through those steps. Dr. Peterson explains how memory is a key component in moving forward. 

โ€œIf these memories are still causing you emotional pain years later when you think about them or dwell on them, or they spontaneously come to mind, it means that thereโ€™s part of your life that you havenโ€™t mapped out properly. You’re still holding onto that story, or it’s still holding onto you.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

He explains that your brain will continually tell you that what happened to you wasnโ€™t good and it will be rehearsed in your mind until you change it. You first have to figure out why that thing happened to you and how that situation pulled you down. 

โ€œAnd that’s not simple. โ€ฆ That’s why we have the writing program because it’s complicated to think it through. But if you face it and you meditate on it, there’s a pretty high probability that you’ll be able to decrease the probability that will be repeated in the future.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

Dr. Peterson identifies three things to ask yourself in this process: 

  1. How are you going to avoid catastrophic temptations?
  2. How are you going to use your time meaningfully and productively outside of work?
  3. Do you want a long-term, stable, intimate relationship?

Part of crafting your story is also deciding what you definitely donโ€™t want in your life. 

Avoiding No-Manโ€™s Land

If you don’t have a vision, you’re not going to aim at it, and if you don’t aim at it, then you won’t even see the opportunities when they arise. This is where itโ€™s important to watch the words you say over yourself and your life, because words have meaning, and words create your environment. 

We talk about this all the time at The School of Greatness. Our words have power. So the question is, what world do you want to create? According to Dr. Peterson, it takes a lot of trial and error. There are skills you develop along the way and also wisdom that you can apply to the new path. So there doesnโ€™t need to be fear of failure. Itโ€™s failing forward, right? 

Wandering in โ€œno manโ€™s land,โ€ though, is actually worse than going down a bad path. Dr. Petersonโ€™s advice is to not be too perfectionistic about it. You have to try a bunch of paths in life before you find out what you exactly want. 

โ€œIf you really want to be motivated, you want to be going somewhere, and that means you want to not be going somewhere else โ€” which is typically pain or anxiety or some domain of suffering.โ€ – Dr. Jordan Peterson

Here are some of the common weaknesses that create obstacles between people and their aims in life:

  1. Lying
  2. Procrastinating
  3. Avoiding conflict
  4. Narcissism 
  5. Nihilism 
  6. Being aimless
  7. Having a victim mentality
  8. Sacrificing meaning for expediency โ€” not taking care of basic responsibilities 
  9. Negotiating poorly with significant others
  10. Being bitter at work 
  11. Not thinking through what youโ€™re doing tomorrow
  12. Drinking, smoking, and drugs 

Iโ€™m sure you could pick out at least one thing on this list that youโ€™ve struggled with. Are you still struggling with it? Why is that weakness still an obstacle? What would it take for you to make a change for the better? 

โ€œIf you donโ€™t experience the pain now or the difficulty now, youโ€™re going to have a deeper pain later.โ€ – Dr. Jordan Peterson

Itโ€™s about sacrificing stability in the present for the gain in the future. It may hurt, but it will be worth it in the end. Like that saying, โ€œno pain, no gain,โ€ right?

Another way to avoid โ€œno manโ€™s landโ€ is to take care of your health. Did you know your cognitive ability is directly related to how in shape you are? Physical activity can restore your cognitive functions which can help you make better choices in life. 

โ€œWhen youโ€™re not in good physical shape, then one of the things that suffer greatly is your cognitive function. Itโ€™s quite an interesting thing to see how tight that linkage is.โ€ – Dr. Jordan Peterson

So to avoid โ€œno manโ€™s landโ€ you need to take risks and pick a path, be okay with failing, overcome your weaknesses, and take care of your physical health. 

Now that you know what to avoid, the most important question remains โ€” why am I even here?

We Are Tougher Than We Think

Dr. Peterson says asking the question of โ€œwhy am I even hereโ€ is a self-defeating set of propositions in some sense. 

โ€œThe reason youโ€™re stuck with this question, to begin with, is that youโ€™re not very happy about the fact that life is intrinsically tied up with suffering.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson

But the good news is that if we have a sufficiently noble purpose, then the suffering will justify itself. We are way tougher than we think if we turn around and confront the suffering. 

โ€œWeโ€™re stronger when things are terrible, and things are pretty terrible, so that means weโ€™re pretty strong. Itโ€™s a very good thing to know. You are so tough, you canโ€™t believe it.โ€ โ€“ Dr. Jordan Peterson. 

I am so encouraged by this message that we are stronger than we believe. We have the responsibility to find our meaning in this life โ€” and the secret is, it can be so much more amazing than we ever thought possible. 

Why You Should Listen to This Dr. Jordan Peterson Podcast Episode Right Now…

If you found value in what Dr. Peterson and I talked about today, please tag Dr. Peterson, and me, @lewishowes, on Instagram with your key takeaways. Please also go to Apple Podcasts, give us a five-star rating, and donโ€™t forget to subscribe!

Dr. Peterson finds that his definition of greatness is best captured in one word โ€” responsibility. Even Winston Churchill said that the price of greatness is responsibility. There is work to do in pursuit of greatness. Like Dr. Peterson, I believe that by asking ourselves important questions about our purpose, and meaning, and creating an aim towards those goals, we can find true happiness in our lives. 

If youโ€™re ready to learn how to build more meaning into your life, make sure you donโ€™t miss Episode 644 with Dr. Peterson on The School of Greatness!

 

To Greatness,

Lewis Howes - Signature

Some Questions I Ask:

  • How do you embody something in a shift of view? (7:23)
  • Why is there so much conflict in the world? (8:14)
  • A clear conscience is different than happiness? (11:06)
  • When weโ€™re watching sports, what does it do for us? (15:51)
  • How do you fix your past traumas you canโ€™t let go of? (21:22)
  • What do you mean by being reasonable with your goals? (23:18)
  • Why is it better to have a bad plan than to be in โ€œNo Manโ€™s Land?” (27:15)
  • What are some examples of weaknesses people might have? (28:42)
  • What are three weaknesses you know right now you can still work on? (29:29)
  • Does a rationale mean a meaning? (37:14)

In this episode, you will learn:

  • How Dr. Peterson simplifies his philosophy (6:16)
  • The relationship between responsibility and meaning (9:56)
  • Why people are so interested in sports (13:13)
  • The reasons you need a noble cause (17:37)
  • The purpose of memory (20:17)
  • Why do you need to be able to answer the seven questions (25:54)
  • What you have to do to move forward (31:06)
  • Why you should be exercising (32:48)
  • The reason people get stuck searching for their meaning (39:12)
  • Plus much more…
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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

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